Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
So you are saying the EU will protect us and we will be able to say no when and where necessary? Exactly how do you propose to do that when the EU cannot protect anyone, they are a useless body of pen pushers who need to have 10 meetings before deciding to buy a pen let alone rush to step in in times of crisis, they have let us down time and time again we do not trust them at all.
(cnt'd) exchange between Viewpoint [a tCypriot] and Antifon [a gCypriot] on Sun Feb 06, 2011 | Cyprus Forum / Cyprus problem / 'Too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas?' discussion thread
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
Referring to the EU as a useless body is both wrong and highly offensive. I understand it constitutes a healthy part of neo-Ottoman self-aggrandizement but it has no bearing to reality. You do not seem to trust many people as a community. You know, if you are on the highway and more than one cars is headed in the opposite direction you should start questioning whether you yourself are on the correct side of the highway. The "feel sorry" for us story simply does not wash anymore. Get out of your propaganda prison. It is much nicer, healthier outside. By the way, has it occurred to you that people may not trust you that much either? I know, a revolutionary concept!
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
I think you miss the point, the number 1000 [this had previously been said: Do you realize that tCypriots will accept a thousand times worse situation than we have in the TRNC than capitulate to GC dominance and no weight in any future union?] expresses our determination and mistrust of gCypriots real intentions, the Kurds are not my problem Cyprus is and people that try to mix the two issues are not really helping the situation. Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
On the issue of mistrust, see my answer above & grow up in Allah's name. Or even Buddha's. The boogeyman is long gone. You need to update your children storytelling narratives. On the issue of the Kurds, a more honest answer from you would have been to at least express your sympathy to their cause. After all they a 20 million strong ethnic community, or circa 25% of population, who do not even have the right to speak their language. In any case, I make a very convincing, as well as entertaining, comparative politics case on my blog. Explore it. You will especially enjoy this little story as most telling. The book has yet to be approved by the way. I'd say the gCypriot majority is treating the tCypriot minority like royalty, all things considered.Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
You cannot dismiss enosis so easily, it was the reason for taksim to be born and pursued so once the arrow had left the bow you cannot stop and say here was no bow, BBF is the compromise between the 2 extremes.
The tCypriots will not move unless they are 100% certain that whats on offer is much better than what they have today, you may ridicule and belittle the TRNC all you wish it means nothing as it is our home and where we feel safe and out of GCs arm reach BBF with political equality is not as complicated as you wish to make it, all it needs for both sides to be committed to compromising in order to bridge the chasms that clearly exist.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
I can dismiss enosis extremely easily for the simple reason that it does not constitute at all part of gCypriot thinking. It once was popular. And, spending the majority of my time in Greece I can safely say that it is light years away from Greek thinking, not registering on any politician's or group's radar, not even the extreme right. As a result, it is not a matter of the solution being half-way, or mid-way, or 3/5 of the way between taksim and enosis. It does not make sense to think in these terms. The solution needs to address the needs of the Cypriot people without allowing the stifling of the democratic processes. Period! I agree that limited veto power should be awarded to the tCypriot community, especially in light of past experiences, in an agreed number of issues that might be construed as attempts by the majority community to stifle its prosperity. These cases need to come out of a dialogue, but in any case the legislative process must be allowed to proceed and not be blocked by imaginary or pretentious fears.My friend, the safety that the "TRNC" provides today is dangerous. It already chased away tens of thousands of tCypriots and threatens your very quality of life and identity by the huge influx of mainland Turks. And trust me, you will never feel 100% sure that the new solution will be better; but it will be with a 100% degree certainty better that today for the entire tCypriot community and Cyprus as a whole. You have no choice but to trust gCypriots. Turkey may not give you an alternative, as the recent events prove.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
The fact that the majority of gCypriots do as you do dismiss our concerns as exaggerated is very annoying as it feels like you are just dismissing what we think important to achieve your own means, so would you kindly refrain from do this. Again you go on to say that we would be welcomed in the "RoC" and EU parliament, have you discussed this with other gCypriots, they hate the thought of TCs representing them or the "RoC" anywhere in the world. The problem is not living with gCypriots the problem is being forced to live under a gCypriot administration, why can't we have the choice to to reside where ever we wish be it the tCypriot or gCypriot administered states?
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
Why do you place RoC in quotes? You do not recognize it? I am happy on the other hand to see that despite your low opinion of the EU you recognize its existence. I think that we agree that Cypriots should be able to reside where ever they choose. The boogeyman again. Exaggerated concerns must be overcome one way or the other or paralysis ensues. In time you will feel confident. I have waited 40 years. How much longer do you need? If for your fears to be eased I have to forget Lapithos or Keryneia, or forfeit my right to ownership, or give you the right to block the normal functioning of the state or restrict gCypriots' human rights, then I am sorry. I have neither the luxury nor the intent. This does not mean that I will force you to live under me or control you. It simply means that life must go on. In time you will learn to trust. I am sure however that a good number of tCypriots have overcome their fears, especially those currently living abroad, subjected to less Turkish propaganda, who will choose to return and they will help instill the confidence required into the rest of tCypriots.
You see, you make it almost impossible for us without realizing it. You say that we, gCypriots, are dismissing what you, tCypriots, think important to achieve our own means. And your answer is that 18 must equal 82, that gCypriots human rights should be curbed, that an artificial dividing line must be maintained? These are not acceptable! Do you have any other proposal about how we can show you that we understand and that we care but without shooting ourselves on the foot to prove it?
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
I like you Viewpoint.
The 1963 changes are a big stigma for us as they are seen as taking away TC rights and handing the island to Greece. So how do you propose to overcome this major problem?
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
Boogeyman! Read the god-damn document. Negotiate it. Give something, ask for something in return. Or forget 1963 and negotiate a BBF. No matter what you do, think ENOSIS, not TAKSIM! Union of Cypriots, not separation! Enhancing integration, not division. OK? You will make all our lives much easier. My personal preference is a solution based on a negotiated 1963. Why a BBF when in 20 years time we will all be living intermixed all over Cyprus as it used to be? What is the point of legitimizing an artificial line drawn by the colonialists? A unitary state, always in my opinion, will be easier to function and less expensive too! I am a fairly nice guy, am I not? Get used to me. I am returning to Lapithos the day after the solution is signed! I will even boost your confidence by agreeing to play you a game of chess, a game I love but I honestly suck at!!
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 08, 2011 12:01 am:
I agree that the talks will come to an abrupt end but I cannot see the GC leaders taking any sort of initiative and requesting the 1960 constitution together with the dreaded amendments be regurgitated.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 08, 2011 2:15 am:
How will you receive my answer since you already think that I do not know gCypriots well enough. Anyhow, assuming I know their thinking well, then gCypriots will jump at the opportunity to negotiate 1963. They will be ecstatic. As I have amply explained though already, they cannot risk initiating it. tCypriots must somehow get the message across in an official manner, that as BBF is disucssed under the aegis of the UN they wish to hold talks with our Dimitris face-to-face to also investigate other possibilities.
We want to move on Viewpoint and you are making it difficult for all of us! The EU which you frown upon (I think you do not mean it) offers a huge platform for Cypriot excellence and distinction in so many fields. I am confident that you are, tCypriots, the most secular and European Muslim community anywhere in Europe!
Together we can truly "dominate" our region. Adding one plus one, or 0,4+1,6, choose your preference Cypriots, will not add up to two, it will add up to 4 or 10! Let's make it happen. Let's remember, let's forgive, let's commemorate, but above all let's chart a new course for Cyprus! For Cypriots!
A leap of faith is required, before too late. gCypriots will not disappoint you this time as they have become wiser and freed of past ghosts. They are ready since long ago. You "owe" them, and above all yourselves, that much! Let's make it a Cypriot "revolution" with no t's or g's attached.
Ps. I see trilingual Cypriots, in Turkish, Greek and English, with no employment worries over the next three decades at least! I will be a beautiful thing to watch deliberations in Cypriot parliament, won't it?
How will you receive my answer since you already think that I do not know gCypriots well enough. Anyhow, assuming I know their thinking well, then gCypriots will jump at the opportunity to negotiate 1963. They will be ecstatic. As I have amply explained though already, they cannot risk initiating it. tCypriots must somehow get the message across in an official manner, that as BBF is disucssed under the aegis of the UN they wish to hold talks with our Dimitris face-to-face to also investigate other possibilities.
We want to move on Viewpoint and you are making it difficult for all of us! The EU which you frown upon (I think you do not mean it) offers a huge platform for Cypriot excellence and distinction in so many fields. I am confident that you are, tCypriots, the most secular and European Muslim community anywhere in Europe!
Together we can truly "dominate" our region. Adding one plus one, or 0,4+1,6, choose your preference Cypriots, will not add up to two, it will add up to 4 or 10! Let's make it happen. Let's remember, let's forgive, let's commemorate, but above all let's chart a new course for Cyprus! For Cypriots!
A leap of faith is required, before too late. gCypriots will not disappoint you this time as they have become wiser and freed of past ghosts. They are ready since long ago. You "owe" them, and above all yourselves, that much! Let's make it a Cypriot "revolution" with no t's or g's attached.
Ps. I see trilingual Cypriots, in Turkish, Greek and English, with no employment worries over the next three decades at least! I will be a beautiful thing to watch deliberations in Cypriot parliament, won't it?
