(cnt'd) exchange between Viewpoint [a tCypriot] and Antifon [a gCypriot] on Sun Feb 06, 2011 | Cyprus Forum / Cyprus problem / 'Too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas?' discussion thread
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
I appreciate where you are coming from but don't you feel that going back to the 1963 agreements which you yourselves so adamantly refused to accept will achieve anything, the TCs see it has taking a step backwards although personally I feel it has it own merits and deserves to be considered which some prominent people in the north so raise and support like Ali Erel.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
You probably mean 1960; 1963 was the Makarios November 30th 1963 proposals which were rejected outright by Turkey and were never discussed. Ethno-communal violence erupted shortly thereafter, which in one year (until end 1964) produced 600 deaths, 2/3 tCypriots. If tCypriots accept today 1963 then I think we have truly wasted a lot of time. It would be the ultimate proof that Karpaz donkeys are even smarter than we all are!
Click here for Cyprus' 1960 constitution & here for President Makarios' 1963 proposals.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
You maybe be asking but the majority of GC demand, they think they have the upper hand so they can demand that we yield to being forced into minority status in a GC state.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
Let me share a personal story with you. I always prided myself in being a good student. I especially liked Physics. Optics in physics is perhaps the easiest subject, especially the lab sessions. I think it was in 9th grade when I took a test where my teacher, Mr Papantoniou included a 'freebie' for the good students, even weighted it with 4 points (out of 20 at the time). The exercise was with lenses and all we had to do was decide where light would converge [I am sure you know that light travels straight]. Everything was pretty clear except that somewhere there was a brick blocking the light's path. Not entirely however; the lenses were big enough to collect enough light which was not blocked thus making the whole exercise in all honesty overvalued, a sitting duck worth 20% of the total score. Guess what. I missed the bloody points. I got a 16 on the test. I think I cried my way home that day. You know, the sort of thing nerds do! Only Chemistry later on in 11th grade made me forget my 16 by another uniquely dismal performance, unbearable to this day!
I hope you do not mind my saying so, but I believe you, as a community, see a brick blocking your political vision. It may not be as simple as my mistake but then again political light rays travel in all sorts of ways, not just predictable straight lines, and of course we know they carry a lot more energy (pathos) than what Einstein would have us believe. It is up to leaders, visionary political leaders to skew and twist their path so as to make them travel in beneficial ways. Of course, it is important, before a leader engages to know the desirable destination. And in my opinion, a wise tCypriot leader will try his best to properly assess the interests of a voice deserving four times his own decibels. I maintain that 1963 presents a unique agenda that needs be discussed without the presence of the UN or any other. Just a gCypriot leader with a tCypriot leader with a common goal: to unite a country, to unite a people, to safeguard legitimate interests, to do away with foreign interests, to jointly exploit just about everything and everyone in order to make Cyprus a place of envy. Trust me, the rest will fall into the right places just as Garry Kasparov knows seven moves in advance where the chess game is headed.
Your own personal brick wall is the repetition of "gCypriots want us to yield to being forced into minority status in a GC state." My response is: remove the brick. It is not really there. Free yourself to listen to messages even if sometimes they originate from people whom you have already labeled decisively one way or another. You may be surprised what the other side is willing to accept. There is, you know, often enough in life a win-win situation.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
It [division] is what it is and a result of the culmination of events contributed to by both sides. Maybe this was needed to stop more and more "Cypriots" being killed if we forced unity and allowed GC domination or even enosis.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
Viewpoint, this is plain wrong. Enosis was officially dropped as a stated goal years before and for the entire 10 year period after 1964 and until the morning of the invasion a total of 23 tCypriots had perished in inter-community violence incidents. Turkey could have dealt with the crisis, the illegal Greek coup, a myriad other ways. One hundred gCypriots died during the coup, all in their defense of the Republic. I do not wish to say more. The 'paramyhti' (fairy tale) just has to end sometime or at least be told differently. No amount of suffering justifies ethnic cleansing. If we measured things by suffering then Kurds should be allowed to rule Turkey for the next century at least. I know it feels good repeating certain things but it makes the brick wall so tall that no rays of hope can ever make it through.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
Then propose it or even better get your leaders to declare it, the timing would be great if they did this tomorrow, I am 100% certain you would not the support of the majority of GCs, your allowing our veto right alone is enough to make GCs reject this proposal from the outset. I get a strong feeling you do not know your own people.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
Your job is to understand my side of the story, and vice versa, it is my job to understand your concerns. gCypriots will not risk being blamed as walking away from the current talks. They have no reason to. Christofias put forth a long time ago a set of three proposals which have been accepted as logical and within UN parameters by many important players. I personally take my hat off to him [fyi, i vote right] for managing to unveil Turkish [Turkey] intent. It would simply be suicidal for gCypriots to suggest changing the basis of discussion thus providing an alibi to Turkey for executing the last chapter of her Ergenekon saga in Cyprus, that of annexation. I have argued on my blog that the ball is in tCypriots' court alone. Times call for a visionary leader on the tCypriot side to rise above popular myths and courageously engage differently with gCypriot leaders. tCypriots need leadership which seems to be lacking (then again I have no idea who says what and who might politically carry the anger and frustration of the tens of thousands of tCypriots who have simply had enough!).
Now I come to your brick wall related to the veto. If you understand that veto means that whatever is put to vote in Cypriot parliament the tCypriot community should have veto powers, then I am afraid you are right that gCypriots, including me, will never accept such a scenario. If however you understand veto power to pertain to a limited number of issues that deal with the security of the tCypriot community or against measures that might be perceived as anti-tCypriot specific, then I can assure no gCypriot leader, not even DHKO's or EDEK's, our staunch "nationalists" would object. Naturally a tCypriot veto cannot apply to any issue that deals with our common EU presence, else it might be abused, just as on so many issues in the early years of the Republic the tCypriot community veto'ed the hell out of so many things leaving the President no option but to propose something (see link above).
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
Over 50 years of negotiations, isnt that enough? doesnt that speak volumes there is no magic agreement both sides want to commit to.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
No. I have proper titles to Lapithos and Kerynia properties. They will be passed on. I have not and do not intend to approach the so called IPC. Compensation is not what is foremost in my mind. My forefathers are buried in the 'north' and that is where I still make plans to retire. All that is lacking is a vision for the future. Unfortunately the tCypriot free will has been for too long hampered by Turkey's fierce Ergenekon/TSK propaganda. Read the first page on my blog, you may enjoy it.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
But the issues you want us to "give" on compromises our situation and places us at risk, this we will never do, you want a unitary state whereas I can tell for sure 100% of TC would never accept anything less that a BBF with political equality.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
A so-called BBF can come into being only if agreed. Until then gCypriots have RoC. What do you have? I know it's harsh, but that is how things are. In my honest view, a BBF will never be agreed if 1960's "equality" logic is maintained or even worse limitation or exceptions to the respect of human rights are introduced.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
Do you really feel hand on heart that this dream [united Cyprus] is dead, speak to the likes of people like Piratis [a Cyprus Forum blogger] who still claim that Cyprus is a Greek island, how can you expect us to drop our guard against these people who promote separatist thinking, firstly eradicate this majority then you will gain credibility otherwise you are in the good doers category who does not even know his own people and their demands.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
Is Piratis representing Cyprus? Leaders lead. People like Piratis and I follow. With my hand on the heart I tell you that at least 70% of gCypriots will vote yes to an agreed 1963-based solution. I expect you to drop your guard, as you eloquently put it, because it is IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. We will together make sure that if Piratis or any other gCypriot likes Greece so much [where I am writing these words from by the way] he can come here and immerse himself in local culture and give a helping hand to dig it out of the hole it has dug itself in. I can confidently say to you Viewpoint that gCypriots in Grecee, even after decades, are foreigners here. Their children perhaps not, but the first generation never manages to blend in seamlessly. I personally love Greece, mostly because the people here carry forward the ideas of ancient Greece, but there is all too often rampant nationalism as well. I can confidently say however that nationalism here pales in comparison to that in Turkey!
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes:
We have taken to the streets many times but you GCs only ridicule and use this to score a few more meaningless brownie points, when will see the GCs take to the street demanding the TCs return to the 1960 agreements? or that Turkey leave the island? I have yet to see one mass rally, GCs are all talk and no action.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds:
tCypriots take to the streets because their suffering continues. gCypriots have been able to adjust, and await for tCypriots quite honestly to spot what is right in front of their noses, blocked only by hyper-insecurity fueled out of proportion by Ergenekon propaganda. You will never see gCypriots take to the streets to go back to 1960! 1960 is the source of the problem. You will see gCypriots take to the streets if you only uttered words similar th these: "We wish in good faith to engage in a discussion to see how we can improve 1960 so as to make it more balanced and more workable, without compromising our existence as a large community of Cyprus. We wish to work with all Cypriots to undo the damage and the injustice inflicted upon all of us throughout the years to the maximum extend possible. We wish to open a new chapter in Cyprus' history."
Do that and gCypriots will pour out into the streets, I first amongst them!
