Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
Thank you Antifon for taking the time to put together such an elaborate response but with all due respect you are not saying anything different form those that wish to force us into minority status with no real effective say in our own future.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:Perhaps not. Your future is a guaranteed EU future as Cypriot citizens. You will not be in a position to stop the majority of RoC's decisions [simple arithmetic] but you will be able to block those decisions that aim to undermine your community's well being.
(cnt'd) exchange between Viewpoint [a tCypriot] and Antifon [a gCypriot] on Sun Feb 06, 2011 | Cyprus Forum / Cyprus problem / 'Too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas?' discussion thread
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
We do not want and will not surrender our rights unless we are 100% sure that what you are offering is far better than what we have today. Do you realize that TCs will accept a thousand times worse situation than we have in the TRNC than capitulate to GC dominance and no weight in any future union.
We do not want and will not surrender our rights unless we are 100% sure that what you are offering is far better than what we have today. Do you realize that TCs will accept a thousand times worse situation than we have in the TRNC than capitulate to GC dominance and no weight in any future union.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
The number 1.000 sounds good and I am sure makes you feel good writing it. The weight of tCypriot voice in any future decision will be commensurate to your arithmetic representation, last properly registered circa 18%. Negotiating in good faith is a good place to start in order to feel more comfortable about gCypriot intentions. Insisting on having the right to block just about everything is ludicrous [unless you get Turkey to give that same right to her Kurds; then we might agree. Of course Kurds have more serious problems than you do and they can only voice them in Turkish]. Speaking about the Kurds, how about the RoC gives you the identical rights Turkey gives them in the RoT? They too suffered and they constitute an even greater (22+%, circa 20 million souls) ethnic minority in Turkey.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
The BBF is a compromise between enosis and taksim, and your leaders still say they support such a solution, they are committed in front of the international community.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
Why are you trying to compromise ENOSIS and TAKSIM. Enosis is long forgotten. It should not enter either the equation or your thinking. As such, neither taksim should play a role.
By the way, bizonal does not necessarily mean two areas. It could mean a number of tCypriot and gCypriot areas whose additions make up the two zones.
I am suggesting Viewpoint that a BBF solution is far too complicated for us to agree on. Failing to do that all we have left is an RoC that represents the entire island. I take it for granted, perhaps wrongly, that RoC will not choose to cancel itself. This leads me to believe that the 1000 times worse scenario you spoke above maybe in the making unless tCypriots take some bold initiatives, either on the BBF front or the 1960/1963 front, to prevent nightmare scenarios from materializing. Then again, perhaps you feel Turkey is so strong that she will always be there for you, certainly a possibility. Recent behavior by Erdogan is not encouraging.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
When you refer to a brick blocking our political vision, can the same analogy be used in the GC case, they feel that they have the god given right due to exploit their numbers to force us to live amongst them in a unitary state where we will feel and probably be treated as second class citizens, how will you guarantee that we will not be discriminated against or face the same problems of the past? you cannot but in the same breath us to take a leap of faith into the arms of people like Piratis and Kikapu, this would like committing suicide which we would never do.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
Exaggerated fears due to lack of self-confidence. An agreed 1963 solution [have you even read the proposals?] for example would solidify you as a community of Cyprus and furthermore you would be awarded EU representation. The Cypriot parliament and the EU parliament are excellent platforms for tCypriots to confidently voice their views and make their presence felt in both houses.
As far as arithmetic goes, no matter how you stretch the number 18, you can't make it equal to 82. Try imagining if you were a member of the majority. How would your own views sound? And before you ask me the same question, my answer is, that had I been a member of the minority community I would consider that the 1963 ideas is worth being debated as it might lead to vastly improved circumstances for my community. I would be confident in my negotiations. Are you?Incidentally, no matter what the solution (BBF or 1963) we will end up living together very soon. Sheer arithmetic. Only anti-human rights provisions can guarantee the opposite and any solution which will include such provisions will be rejected. So best getting used to living and prospering amongst gCypriots. Who knows, you may find that we aren't a bad bunch after all. There will always be people with strong views or even racist views, but I guarantee that the vast majority are peace loving and simply wish to get their lives back.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
Can you clarify exactly what your leader proposals were so that we may discuss them and if they were so "logical" why has the Un been pushing for them? You say GCs are committed to a BBF then why discuss going back to the 1960 agreements?
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
Read Christofias' proposals here.
As for our veto rights in the past, your religious leader refused to follow a supreme court order saying that were were right, how do you expect us to just trust that you will not misuse your majority power if left to do as you wish? this knife cuts both ways that why the veto was included in the 1960 agreements and is there to allow each community to say stop we do not agree with what you are trying to do.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
Let's discuss the extend of the veto rights if you prefer a 1960 based solution.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
Saying this if a balance is struck in the lower and upper house where votes from both states are require to pass new laws then that will be resolved.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
Yes, it might.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
We have the TRNC with all its faults, it is still more desired than what you are offering today which is the "RoC" in the south we can move there tomorrow but due to reason I have made quite clear we will not live in a GC state.
Yes, I understand that. But who knows. If Erdogan will prosecute you some of you might decide to take a leap of faith and seek asylum in the RoC. I hope that by the time those who disagree with you, in that the 1000 times worse is already their reality, take the leap of faith there are enough tCypriots [original] left in the 'north' to justify Turkey's presence. In this scenario we are closer to B25's view.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
As for Piratis [CF blogger], you may not know it living in Greece but he is representative of the majority of GCs, I have met many and although very polite and would refrain from saying it to your face as they do not like talking about the Cyprus issue they share his views and therefore make up the majority.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
I live both in Athens and Nicosia. I know Cyprus and gCypriot thinking way better than I may have alluded. I agree in that most will not say what I share with you here or on my blog.Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
You slightly contradict yourself by saying the GCs will never go back to the 1960 agreement but if TCs demonstrated and begged them they would, only then would they take to the streets,why not the other way around?
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
No contradiction I assure you. I have made a distinction between 1960 and 1963. gCypriots will never accept 1960. They will accept a 1963 based constitution. Read 1963 ideas here.
Viewpoint [tCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:38 pm:
Why dont the GCs state the following; "We wish in good faith to engage in a discussion to see how we can improve 1960 so as to make it more balanced and more workable, without compromising our existence as a large community of Cyprus. We wish to work with all Cypriots to undo the damage and the injustice inflicted upon all of us throughout the years to the maximum extend possible. We wish to open a new chapter in Cyprus' history." Then I guarantee we will take to the streets to support your call.
Antifon [gCypriot] responds on Feb 07, 2011 1:33 am:
The answer is simple and partly answered in my previous post. They stand to lose if they escape the current discussions. However, they will do so once it is clear that a BBF solution cannot be agreed upon. The more separatist ideas Eroglu promotes and tries to introduce into the BBF solution the more likely that Christofias, in synch with the 5 permanent members of the UNSC, will do just that! I personally think that time is getting very close.
B25 [gCypriot] writes on Feb 06, 2011 10:59 pm:
Antifon, you are wasting your time with this partitionist. VP is brainwashed, he will accept nothing less that a partition. No good trying to sweet talk him, it doesn't work. The problem will sort itself out. The TCs are making sure of that, by protesting to their pimp.
If Mr E cuts their payments tomorrow even for just 3 months, they will shit themselves and be good little boys. Wait until half the civil servents get replaced ny Turks, then they will have something to complain about. Here's a proposal for a solution
1. Turkish trrops out of Cyprus
2. Settlers and cheapskates out of Cyprus
3. Refugees to return to their properties, both sides.
4. Then we can discuss the future.
Anything else is just chicken shit and beating around the bush until ones side says enough.
Agreed.???
Antifon responds on Feb 06, 2011 11:24 pm:
B25, I understand your frustrations. I share them. There is however one critical misunderstanding. My answer was not for Viewpoint necessarily. My answer is for all those tCypriots who need to hear how gCypriots think, how we see our future, how we approach difficult issues, how we intend to proceed, what is acceptable and what is not. Viewpoint may be a hardcore partitionsit, maybe not. My message's target is not Viewpoint. Yours should not be either. Our target should be the tens of thousands of tCypriots who are PROUD TO BE CYPRIOTS and who had absolutely nothing to do with the messy situation we find ourselves in. Some of these people WAVED CYPRUS FLAGS last week and already Erdogan is threatening them with Turkeyish justice! I am sorry, B25 but your message, however reasonable it sounds, is an absolute message that achieves the exact opposite result than the intended one.
Humanist writes on Feb 07, 2011 05:15 am:
I think given the recent events in the the "trnc" and the demonstrating the best deal that Eroglu can sign for the TC community is the return to the 1960's constitution. Effectively Turkey would have done its intervention bit. 35 Years later the island returns to normality Turkey withdraws its troops, right of return for everyone with individuas to nominate, those who choose to return will be either rebuilding or renovating into properties pending on individual need. Therefore you create a boom in building and therefore boosting a newly formed society where all sectotrs of the economy benefit.
Antifon responds on Feb 07, 2011 10:12 am:
I agree, well partly. Yes, 1960 would be the best deal for Eroglu. However not for gCypriots. We must aim for a 1960 with changes, which will be in the best interest of both communities. Agreed changes, in a give and take perhaps negotiation that addresses major concerns of both the 18 and the 82. In a negotiation where the 82 is allowed to think like an 18 & vice versa. A negotiation where no UN or anyone else, other than Cypriots is present.
Let us not forget that it was the very unworkability of the 1960 constitution which led to the 13-point proposal by Makarios on November 30th 1963, the December start of ethnic clashes and the saga we have all been living through since.
Makarios' 1963 ideas, a document which was never properly discussed, is a good place to start. Cypriots must also revisit all those clauses that allow either direct or indirect foreign intervention. Ideally, all such clauses should be eliminated and replaced with CYPRIOT solutions which make sense. The British could stay if they want, but they should give back, well let's brainstorm, by financing our rebuilding through rent for the bases or providing lifetime free education for all Cypriot generations in UK institutions, etc.
See November 30th document below, titled SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963).
I hope tCypriots can muster the strength to rise above false insecurities, to realize that we wish a FAIR & WORKABLE SOLUTION (1960 was not!), that we are free of past ghosts, and that we wish for all Cypriots to join together in making Cyprus a proper home for all of us. A European home in the midst of a very troubled neighborhood, still in search of its 1776 or 1789 revolutions!
Humanist writes on Feb 07, 2011 05:15 am:
I think given the recent events in the the "trnc" and the demonstrating the best deal that Eroglu can sign for the TC community is the return to the 1960's constitution. Effectively Turkey would have done its intervention bit. 35 Years later the island returns to normality Turkey withdraws its troops, right of return for everyone with individuas to nominate, those who choose to return will be either rebuilding or renovating into properties pending on individual need. Therefore you create a boom in building and therefore boosting a newly formed society where all sectotrs of the economy benefit.
Antifon responds on Feb 07, 2011 10:12 am:
I agree, well partly. Yes, 1960 would be the best deal for Eroglu. However not for gCypriots. We must aim for a 1960 with changes, which will be in the best interest of both communities. Agreed changes, in a give and take perhaps negotiation that addresses major concerns of both the 18 and the 82. In a negotiation where the 82 is allowed to think like an 18 & vice versa. A negotiation where no UN or anyone else, other than Cypriots is present.
Let us not forget that it was the very unworkability of the 1960 constitution which led to the 13-point proposal by Makarios on November 30th 1963, the December start of ethnic clashes and the saga we have all been living through since.
Makarios' 1963 ideas, a document which was never properly discussed, is a good place to start. Cypriots must also revisit all those clauses that allow either direct or indirect foreign intervention. Ideally, all such clauses should be eliminated and replaced with CYPRIOT solutions which make sense. The British could stay if they want, but they should give back, well let's brainstorm, by financing our rebuilding through rent for the bases or providing lifetime free education for all Cypriot generations in UK institutions, etc.
See November 30th document below, titled SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963).
I hope tCypriots can muster the strength to rise above false insecurities, to realize that we wish a FAIR & WORKABLE SOLUTION (1960 was not!), that we are free of past ghosts, and that we wish for all Cypriots to join together in making Cyprus a proper home for all of us. A European home in the midst of a very troubled neighborhood, still in search of its 1776 or 1789 revolutions!
